koala wrote:Nea' Brox', te-ai muncit ceva la tabelele alea! Jos palaria!
Levi are dreptate, poti pleca de la o durata mica de iluminare, pe care sa o cresti treptat.

Prea mult timp nu a durat, vreo 30 de min sa imi dau seama ca este formula de recurenta si cu timp nu doar numeric/calendaristic, si poti seta cate minute vrei.
E prea mare si prea mult timp investit sa dau acum cu picioru si sa ma umplu de alge...
Intrebarea generala ar fi: Cate ore de lumina are nevoie pe zi un SPS ?

YDarius wrote:Te rog sa imi zici si mie dupa ce termini cu aditia de Seachem daca a functionat si la tine

Dupa o saptamana am avut NO2=0, NH3/4=0 , nu cred ca se poate face comparatie pt ca inainte l-am ciclat 2 luni cu apa dulce, dar pot spune ca sunt SUPER !

Cum adica, l-ai ciclat 2 luni cu apa dulce?... nu inteleg.

koala wrote:Cum adica, l-ai ciclat 2 luni cu apa dulce?... nu inteleg.

Am mai auzit si eu treaba asta.
Din cate stiu numai o parte din tulpinile de bacterii se regasesc atat in apa dulce cat si in apa sarata.
Ar fi fain ca Broxlin sa ne dea o explicatie mai detaliata.

Nici eu nu inteleg asta cu apa dulce.
Dar dupa ce ai terminat saptamana de aditii ai pus o sursa de amoniac sa vezi in cat timp iti dispare ?

''Ciclarea'' in apa dulce are ca efect urmatoarea:
Cantitatea de amoniac prezenta in roci se elimina in mediu de apa dulce .... faci o spalatura la roci iar cand o pui in apa sarata se reia ciclarea insa de durata extrem de mica (din cate stiu nu mai sunt spike-uri de amoniac)
Din cate stiu, am tinut si eu piatra vie in apa dulce si am sarit peste etapa de alge multe si lungi si paroase

Asta e o informatie pe cinste

Eu cunosc 2 metode sa elimini toate 'mortaciunile' din piatra uscata:
1 cu clor, arde tot si apoi pui piatra in seachem prime sau alta solutie ce scoate clorul
2 prin ciclul azotului. In apa dulce bacteriile se dezvolta mai repede si oxigenul ajuta enorm de mult.
Nu ma deranjeaza daca au murit din bacterii si au ramas cele comune, oricum dozez bacterii si voi doza inca cel putin 2-3 luni (perioada estimata de mine in care se vor coloniza pietrele 100%)
Un surplus la ciclarea cu dulce este ca am scapat de orice vierme plat sah alt parazit.
Prin rabdarea lui Nicu, am reusit sa imi populez acvariul cu gamarus, vreau sa pun si copepode dar inca nu am gasit.
Arunc de 2-3 ori pe saptamana mancare uscata sa produca amoniac, sambata voi mai face teste si le urc pe forum.
La ciclare am folosit apa de osmoza, cel mai indicat era de izvor, da mno ... + bacterii

Complet gresit nenea Broxlin

In apa sarata, datorita pH-ului mai ridicat, sint favorizate bacteriile. Cu cat ai un pH mai jos
de cel neutru, 7, cu atat activitatea bacteriilor scade. Cu cat este mai mare peste 7, cu atat
creste activitatea bacteriana, cu un maxim intre 8,5 si 9.

In plus de asta bacteriile care fac nitrificare in apa dulce, tulpinile respective, sint complet
inhibate in apa sarata. Invers nu este valabil, tulpinile de bacterii de apa sarata se pot
adapta la apa dulce. Cu alte cuvinte ai facut degeaba ciclarea in apa dulce, nicio bacterie
nitrificatoare de apa dulce nu a rezistat in apa sarata.

Un citat din articolul scris de mine despre filtrarea biologica:

"- salinitatea influenteaza nitrificarea, o salinitate constanta fiind optima
pentru nitrificare; totusi bacteriile nitrificatoare din apele dulci sint
complet inhibate in ape sarate, iar bacteriile nitrificatoare din apele
sarate sint foarte sensibile la nivelul de oxigen dizolvat"

Articolul il gasesti aici:

http://www.acvariu.ro/forum/posts/list/24422.page

Imi pare rau ca nu am apucat sa il postez si pe forumu' lu' Margareta & Nistor si comp.

Un citat dintr-o lucrare pe care am citit-o si de unde m-am inspirat (nu am inventat eu roata, sint
altii de specialitate care au facut-o ):

"Salinity
Kawai, et al. (1965) found that nitrification in saline waters was maximal when done at constant salinities. Fresh water nitrifiers were completely inhibited in saline waters. Salt water nitrifiers were also found to be more sensitive to oxygen concentrations than fresh water nitrifiers. Bower and Turner (1981) noted that abrupt changes in salinity probably shocked nitrifiers, thus reducing their ability to remove ammonia and nitrite. Slowly acclimating working biological filters to salinity conditions results in successful transitions from one salinity level to another. A maximum change of 5 ppt should not adversely affect biofilter operation. However, gradual changes in salinity over several weeks is preferable."

Deci ciclarea cu apa dulce pentru un bazin de apa sarata nu este decat un mit, nu functioneaza.

O zi buna,
Dragos

- Eu confirm faptul ca bacteriile de apa "sarata" supravietuiesc in apa "dulce"... cand am tratat pestii cu hiposalinitate, ajunsesem pana la 1.008-1.009 si acvariul nu s-a deciclat.
- Invers nu mai e valabil... mi-aduc aminte ca, pe vremea lui Carlos si-a Ritei, am vrut sa curat niste tevi (se depusesera alge) asa ca am facut "potroaca" in acvariu... s-a deciclat imediat.

Sa o luam pe idei :
-nu ma deranjat si nici nu vreau sa ma intelegi gresit (cum a facut-o preacuviosu ventilator - daca nu aveam ideea lui, era 'incult')
-imi vine greu sa cred ca in atata piatra si nisip nu am avut ph de minim 7, in arhiva cu masuratori am avut 8
-zici ca au murit bacteriile...am scris ca am dozat prodibio deci sigur nu au murit (si chiar daca au murit, au venit cele din stability in saptamana ciclarii cu sarat)
-eu vroiam sa scap de amoniac, bacteriile erau pe planul 2
-referitor la publicatii...sa inteleg ca te bazezi pe ceva din 1965/ 1981 ? (mai cunosc acvaristi care se bazeaza pe niste publicatii gresite, gen: recircularea apei display-sump, ca este ideal 2-3x volumul display-ului)
E la mintea cocosului ca un debit mare de apa, face ca orice mizerie sa ajunga in sump, de unde se va elimina. Asta am testat cu o pompa de 10.000 vs 3.000 cat am acum
-nu am timp, acum, ca as face un test: 2 bazine de 50 l, perfect egale(piatra, nisip, bacterii), sarat/dulce si in care sa pun amoniac sa vedem care digera mai repede.
-va mai amintiti ce scria pe special bled? - a se doza dublu in apa sarata, inginerii care au dezvoltat bacteriile alea, nu au facut si ei un studiu pt a zice asta?
--------------------------
Referitor la lumina, multa lume zice - baga meserie...cati din ei, au pornit de la ZERO sistemul si au dat lumina cat cuprinde... si fara gram de alga, diatome, etc... ? imi vine iar greu sa cred asta.
--------------------------

Un incalzitor bun stie cineva?, am incercat vreo 4-5 si sunt cam dezamagit. (consum, eficienta, stabilitate)
Am luat recent un eheim jager - teapa curata ...

Rulez acum pe china cu termostat propriu, legat la un controller weipro, problema e ca asteapta sa se raceasca cu 0.5 grade ca sa porneasca...din moment ce este controller de pH cu 2 zecimale, de ce nu ar fi si pentru temp ?

Eu folosesc Sera clasic cu bimetal,(În carantin?) am observat pe un termometru electronic ca face o stabilitate undeva la 0,1-0,2 grade celsius

Broxlin eu folosesc un incalzitor de la sera de vreo 3 ani si merge perfect,daca vrei iti pot comanda unul si cred ca costa in jur de 60 de lei

Daca imi pot recupera banii pe eheim, luam sera .

Da de unde la-i cumparat?

Nenea Broxlin daca matale esti in stare sa ii contrazici pe aia care au tratate in domeniu
te-as ruga sa o faci cu niste probe concrete. Pina atunci prefer sa dau crezare unui om de stiinta
care a facut experimente si care spune ca bacteriile nitrificatoare de apa dulce nu supravietuiesc
in apa sarata. O intreaga comunitate stiintifica se bazeaza pe astfel de experimente ale diversilor
oameni de stiinta si ma indoiesc ca vei reinventa tu roata.

Cand vrei sa stam de vorba despre filtrare, recirculare, sumpuri, skimmere si orice alte metode
de filtrare iti stau la dispozitie. Pina una alta incearca sa vii cu argumente, nu sa arunci pastile
de genul ciclarii cu apa dulce a unui acvariu de apa sarata. Ca la mine nu tin pastile de genul
asta. Fara suparare. Sint dispus sa invat lucruri noi, asta este unul dintre motivele pentru care
sintem aici, dar sa imi explici ca cei care au facut respectivele experimente si au scris carti si tratate
sint depasiti, indiferent cand au facut experimentele, crede-ma ca e putin deplasat, ca sa ma exprim
delicat. E ca si cum mi-ai spune ca Pitagora e depasit si venim cu o noua teorema. Hai sa fim seriosi
si sa nu o mai dam in diverse.

Daca vrei sa citesti ceea ce am scris eu despre filtrare si sa comentezi esti binevenit, dar nu incerca
sa ma convingi ca albul e negru si invers. Vino cu argumente si discutam.

In plus de asta citatul in limba engleza este dintr-o lucrare de specialitate din anii 2000, referitoare la
proiectarea filtrelor biologice, si acolo este citata lucrarea din 1965, daca intre timp se descoperea altceva
cu siguranta autorii lucrarii ar fi stiut, asta e jobul lor. Filtrarea biologica si filtrarea in general in sisteme
cu recirculare (RAS) este o stiinta exacta, nu e o ghicitoare.

Special blend, Biodigest si orice alte solutii comeciale cu bacterii contin diverse tulpini, atat pentru apa
sarata cat si pentru apa dulce. Ceea ce nu contrazice faptul ca bacteriile pentru apa sarata nu rezista
in apa dulce.

Iti recomand totusi sa citesti topicul referitor la filtrare biologic, e posibil sa afli lucruri pe care nu le stiai.
Iar daca le stiai te astept sa comentezi si sa vii cu imbunatatiri daca se poate.

O seara placuta,
Dragos

P.S. nu cred ca e cazul sa faci comparatia intre mine si Margareta, nu crezi?

Pentru cine are chef sa citeasca :

Bibliographic Information

Bacterium for nitrite oxidation in waters. Hovanec, Timothy A. (Aquaria Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (1999), 65 pp. CODEN: PIXXD2 WO 9932603 A1 19990701 Application: WO 98-US27196 19981221. Priority: US 97-68492 19971222. CAN 131:77804 AN 1999:421758

Abstract

An isolated bacterial strain capable of oxidizing nitrite to nitrate is described contg. a 16S rDNA nucleotide sequence ³95% similar or identical to SEQ ID NO:1 (GenBank database AF035813). The strain is clone 710-9. The Nitrospira-like bacterium can be used for nitrification-denitrification of waters, in combination with microorganisms which oxidize ammonia and reduce nitrates. Applications include freshwater or seawater aquariums or wastewaters.


THESE OTHERS ARE PAPERS:

Compositional changes in free-living bacterial communities along a salinity gradient in two temperate estuaries. Bouvier, Thierry C.; del Giorgio, Paul A. Horn Point Laboratory, University of Maryland Center for Environmental Science, Cambridge, MD, USA. Limnology and Oceanography (2002), 47(2), 453-470.

There is clear evidence for major differences in heterotrophic bacterial compn. between freshwater and marine ecosystems. A fundamental, unresolved question is whether compositional succession occurs by a gradual replacement of major phylotypes, or whether there are drastic compositional shifts in discrete areas along the gradient from 1 system to another. This study examd. changes in the phylogenetic compn. of free-living bacterioplankton across a salinity gradient in the Choptank and Pocomoke rivers, both sub-estuaries of Chesapeake Bay, using fluorescence in-situ hybridization (FISH). The proportion of free-living cells detected using FISH varied widely (3-80%); the majority of cells detected belonged to bacteria, whereas Archaea represented <3%. Distribution of the different members of bacteria exhibited a clear pattern along the salinity gradient, dominated by a-proteobacteria in the lower, salt water regions and by b-proteobacteria in the upper, freshwater regions. The Cytophaga-Flavobacterium cluster prevailed in the turbidity max. in the middle estuary, and g-proteobacteria showed sporadic peaks along the transect which may be related to local events. Replacing a- for b-proteobacteria along the salinity gradient was not gradual; it occurred rapidly within the turbidity max. region of estuaries where freshwater and salt water mix. The phylogenetic succession pattern was linked to development of the turbidity max., which was related to rainfall and ensuing hydrol. conditions. There was indication that phylogenetic succession is accompanied by strong physiol. changes in the bacterial assemblage, expressed as a decline in bacterial growth efficiency and community prodn. The transition does not appear to be simply the result of conservative mixing of riverine and estuarine bacterial assemblages, but rather involves cell inactivation and/or death.


The influence of natural salinity gradients on bacteria communities of flowing waters. Rheinheimer, Gerhard. Institut Meereskunde, Kiel, Germany. Limnologica (1997), 27(1), 29-35.

Abstract

Investigations were performed in the Elbe estuary, the Kiel Canal, in a river mouth of the western Baltic Sea, and the Schlei Fjord (Germany). It was demonstrated that the compn. of the bacteria communities was strongly correlated with salinity changes. Increasing salinities caused an increase of the generation time, and rather frequently, also changes of cell morphol. Expts. with natural freshwater bacteria communities and a "reduced community" of isolates from the Schwentine river showed the influence of higher salinities on the activity of these river bacteria. A regrouping of the community took place in brackish water and seawater. Particularly in polluted rivers and in coastal waters facultative osmophilic bacteria played a role in self-purifn.



Comparison of the molecular diversity of the methanogenic community at the brackish and marine ends of a UK estuary. Purdy, Kevin J.; Munson, Mark A.; Nedwell, David B.; Embley, T. Martin. Department of Biological Science, University of Essex, Colchester, Essex, UK. FEMS Microbiology Ecology (2002), 39(1), 17-21.

Abstract

The 16S rRNA sequence diversity of the euryarchaeal community in a predominately freshwater sediment at East Hill Bridge (EHB) on the River Colne estuary, Essex, UK was investigated and compared to that from marine sediments at the mouth of the river (Colne Point). The East Hill Bridge sediments appear to support the full range of methanogen phenotypes with some genotypes similar to those previously detected at Colne Point. However, no Marine Benthic Group D or halophilic archaeal genotypes, both abundant in gene libraries at Colne Point, were detected at East Hill Bridge. Clones related to Methanosarcina and Methanocorpusculum were detected only at East Hill Bridge while clones closely related to Methanoculleus and Methanococcoides were detected only at Colne Point. The most common clones in the East Hill Bridge library were closely related to the obligate acetate-utilizing Methanosaeta concilii, suggesting they may be important methanogens in these sediments. Clones that group closely with M. concilii appear to be ubiquitous in freshwater sediments and we suggest that they are prime candidates for a globally important acetoclastic methanogenic group. The distribution of clones in the East Hill Bridge and Colne Point libraries implies that certain methanogen groups are generalists, adapted to the range of conditions within an estuarine environment (e.g. Methanogenium) while others are more specialist (e.g. Methanosaeta).


True marine and halophilic anoxygenic phototrophic bacteria. Imhoff, Johannes F. Marine Mikrobiologie, Institut fur Meereskunde Kiel, Kiel, Germany. Archives of Microbiology (2001), 176(4), 243-254.

Abstract

A review. Anoxygenic phototrophic bacteria are widely distributed in marine sediments and shallow waters of the coastal zone, where they often form intensely colored mass developments. The phototrophic bacteria have adapted to the whole spectrum of salt concns., from freshwater to satd. brines, and it is apparent that individual species have adapted well to particular habitats and mineral salts compns., both qual. and quant. This adaptation is reflected not only in the demand for defined ranges of salt concns., but also in the phylogenetic relationships of these bacteria, as established by 16S rDNA sequences. Major phylogenetic branches of purple sulfur bacteria are represented by: (1) marine and extremely halophilic Ectothiorhodospiraceae, (2) truly marine and halophilic Chromatiaceae and (3) freshwater Chromatiaceae, some of which are tolerant to low salt concns. and are successful competitors in brackish and marine habitats. Quite similarly, salt-dependent green sulfur bacteria form distinct phylogenetic lines. In addn., also among the phototrophic a-Proteobacteria (purple nonsulfur bacteria), distinct phylogenetic lines of salt-dependent species are recognized. Available data give rise to the assumption that salt concns. of natural habitats are an important selective factor that dets. the development of a selected range of phototrophic bacteria in an exclusive way. As a consequence, the salt responses of these bacteria are reflected in their phylogenetic relationships.


Phylogenetic comparisons of a coastal bacterioplankton community with its counterparts in open ocean and freshwater systems. Rappe, M. S.; Vergin, K.; Giovannoni, S. J. Department of Microbiology, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR, USA. FEMS Microbiology Ecology (2000), 33(3), 219-232.

Abstract

In order to extend previous comparisons between coastal marine bacterioplankton communities and their open ocean and freshwater counterparts, here we summarize and provide new data on a clone library of 105 SSU rRNA genes recovered from seawater collected over the western continental shelf of the USA in the Pacific Ocean. Comparisons to previously published data revealed that this coastal bacterioplankton clone library was dominated by SSU rRNA gene phylotypes originally described from surface waters of the open ocean, but also revealed unique SSU rRNA gene lineages of b-Proteobacteria related to those found in clone libraries from freshwater habitats. b-Proteobacteria lineages common to coastal and freshwater samples included members of a clade of obligately methylotrophic bacteria, SSU rRNA genes affiliated with Xylophilus ampelinus, and a clade related to the genus Duganella. In addn., SSU rRNA genes were recovered from such previously recognized marine bacterioplankton SSU rRNA gene clone clusters as the SAR86, SAR11, and SAR116 clusters within the class Proteobacteria, the Roseobacter clade of the a subclass of the Proteobacteria, the marine group A/SAR406 cluster, and the marine Actinobacteria clade. Overall, these results support and extend previous observations concerning the global distribution of several marine planktonic prokaryote SSU rRNA gene phylotypes, but also show that coastal bacterioplankton communities contain SSU rRNA gene lineages (and presumably bacterioplankton) shown previously to be prevalent in freshwater habitats.


Contrasts between marine and freshwater bacterial community composition: analyses of communities in Lake George and six other Adirondack lakes. Methe, Barbara A.; Hiorns, William D.; Zehr, Jonathan P. Darrin Fresh Water Institute Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY, USA. Limnology and Oceanography (1998), 43(2), 368-374.

Abstract

The bacterial communities of 7 freshwater lakes in the Adirondack Mountains of New York state were examd. using culture-independent methods. b-Proteobacteria 16S rRNA sequences were recovered from all 7 lakes and their presence was confirmed by direct DNA hybridization. The results are consistent with phylogenetic and in situ hybridization-based studies in other freshwater environments, but are significantly different than the results of marine oceanic studies, where b-Proteobacteria are noticeably absent. This relation between evolutionary history and environmental distribution is striking, since these phylogenetic clades have not been correlated with consistent physiol. features or biochem. capabilities, and there is no a priori reason to expect differences in phylogenetic compn. between the environments. In contrast, freshwater relatives to marine phylogenetic clusters, in particular the SAR 11 cluster of the a-Proteobacteria, were identified. The data imply an underlying physiol. distinction between the b- and other Proteobacteria groups and potentially an important difference between the compn. of bacterial communities in marine and freshwater environments.

L.E Si inca ceva despre "seeding"

Accelerated nitrification in new seawater culture systems: effectiveness of commercial additives and seed media from established systems. Bower, Carol E.; Turner, David T. Sea Res. Found., Inst. Aquarium Stud., West Hartford, CT, USA. Aquaculture (1981), 24(1-2), 1-9.
Abstract

The conditioning period or time required to establish nitrification in new seawater culture systems was reduced substantially or eliminated after seeding with various media from established seawater aquariums. The relative effectiveness of the seed media was: 10% wet filtrant > 5% wet filtrant > 20% seawater > 10% dry filtrant. The introduction of com. additives contg. nitrifying bacteria or of filtrant from an established freshwater culture system did not accelerate the nitrification sequence in new seawater aquariums.

P.S Eu nu vreau sa intru in vreo polemica , am gasit astea si am zis sa vi le arat, toate articolele sunt prezentate de Randy Holmes-Farley

Atata vreme cat invatam ceva bun din ea, polemica isi are beneficiile ei ...

The conditioning period or time required to establish nitrification in new seawater culture systems was reduced substantially or eliminated after seeding with various media from established seawater aquariums. The relative effectiveness of the seed media was: 10% wet filtrant > 5% wet filtrant > 20% seawater > 10% dry filtrant. The introduction of com. additives contg. nitrifying bacteria or of filtrant from an established freshwater culture system did not accelerate the nitrification sequence in new seawater aquariums.



Mie mi se pare destul de clar...

Din punctul meu de vedere, indiferent ce bazin pornesti sau resetezi tot va declansa o ciclare (oricat de mica ar fi)
Faptul ca o roca de recif sta mai multe zile in apa dulce nu face altceva decat sa dilueze foarte-foarte mult tot ce inseamna ''daunatori'' (silicati sau fosfati de exemplu). Desigur, sunt de acord ca odata mutata piatra in mediu salin incepe ciclarea propriu-zisa intr-o forma tipica mediului nou insa, piatra fiind ''spalata'' avem tendinta de a crede ca ciclarea este aproape inexistenta, confundand faptul ca noul bazin a trecut printr-o carantina si am sa va dau un exemplu babesc:
Am costruit niste frag-plugs si:
- o parte ne-am pus direct in bazin dipa ce s-au uscat. Rezultat: au prins alge rapid, chiar si ciano
- o parte le-am pastrat intr-un recipient cu apa dulce. Rezultat: cand le-am pus in bazin nu au facyt hair ca celelalte si spot green algae si apoi coralina (in timp ce celelalte inca aveau alga verde lunga.
Ca si o concluzie:
Aceeasi Marie insa cu alta palarie

Sebastian Costin wrote:

Asta de l-am citat a facut o gresala de edit sorry

Sebi discutia era strict despre ciclarea unui bazin cu apa dulce la care apoi schimbi cu
apa sarata. Ciclarea in apa sarata o ia de la zero, bacteriile care s-au format in timpul
ciclarii cu apa dulce mor si nu te ajuta la nimic. Apa dulce te ajuta sa diluezi ceea ce este
in piatra, sa omori eventualii musafiri nepoftiti, si cam atat. Ciclarea in apa dulce nu te
ajuta la ciclarea unui bazin cu apa sarata, pur si simplu bacteriile mor, sint alte tulpini
in apa sarata decat in apa dulce. Citatele puse de Darius nu fac decat sa confirme ceea ce
am spus eu. In niciun moment nu am discutat despre alte beneficii de care vorbesti tu, si
care mie mi se par relative, acelasi lucru se poate obtine cu apa sarata si in aceste conditii
incepe si ciclarea.

Eu am ciclat bazinul meu in mai putin de 3 saptamani folosind piatra vie necurata si numai
apa sarata.

O seara placuta,
Dragos